A new conversation started on the authenticity and utility of "virtual" sanghas vs. "flesh and bone" sanghas has started up.
- Illusory Flowers in an Empty Sky - Virtual isn't real
- Angry Asian Buddhist - Online sanghas
- The Reformed Buddhist - The snobs show their colors: take two
- The Reformed Buddhist - iSangha
Personally, I think both are viable and real outlets of the Dharma and perfectly good training and practicing tools. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. A "virtual" sangha gives an opportunity for many of us in the more rural areas of the US connect with teachers, practitioners and schools that we would not ordinarily be privy to due to geographic and logistical constraints. At the same time a "virtual" sangha does not provide the same type of support as a "flesh and bone" sangha nor does it give the same depth of practice.
I do believe that while I do connect with my "flesh and bone" sangha (I am fortunate that my locale does sport two, formerly three, small sanghas). However, being able to branch out online did much to prepare me for eventual daily practice as well as gave me the support to approach my local sangha with my interest in practice. As with most things, I think a combination of both produces the best results. I sit weekly with a "flesh and bone" sangha but attend virtual retreats (due to time and monetary restraints) online. I am not in the position to attend "real" Dharma Talks but ones podcasted by zendos and by AudioDharma, ZenCast and DharmaRealm serve the purpose more than addequately.
To call this support "not nourishing" seems drastic (I wash plenty of dishes). A sangha is partly about communication. By discouraging virtual sanghas you also discourage teachers to actual reach out to practitioners that don't have a local sangha to practice as well as discouraging individuals to broaden their horizons past what is outside their front door.
I will concede that eventually, a serious Buddhist practitioner needs to confront an actual, authentic teacher for instruction. But whether it is online or face-to-face - It doesn't matter, there is some benefit to be gotten. The bottom line is that any practitioner that is serious needs to access what is available to them by virtue of their situation and location. Whether that be online blogging and chats with other practitioners or sitting with a group or combination of both. At the same time any teacher that is serious about reaching people (especially those that do not have the luxury of local temple or monastery to guide their growth) needs to utilize emerging tools to reach them.
So thank you to all of my "Virtual" Sangha-siblings and Dharma-guides. You all inspire me to practice daily and critically examine myself constantly. You keep me striving.
Cheers,
Yeah, I read all these posts. I really felt that same sense of "drastic" you mentioned when reading Dogo's post and the comments he made to those commented on his post. He tells someone who asks why he blogs that it's just something he does and that there's no value to it really. To me, that's just clunky zen talk - especially since it's on line, and said without any knowledge of the practice of the commenter. That kind of knock the crap out of our delusions type talk is perfect at certain times, for certain practitioners, but definitely not for everyone at all times. Which I think gets at the reason why a diversity of approaches, including online study and practice, are beneficial in that people have access and can enter into practice in multiple ways.
ReplyDeleteThere are definitely plenty of potential pitfalls online, and the value of in the flesh dharma friends and teachers is immeasurable, but when people say that there's nothing of value online (and they themselves are active online), a red flag springs wildly up.
This debate is probably going to go on for decades though, so I guess we better enjoy the ride :)
I agree with Nathan, we should enjoy the ride. Whether these people want or not, there is a flourishing online sangha, that has more communication between practitioners in 1 day than most places have in a year. We have a wonderful thing here, and its not going anywhere.
ReplyDeleteIndeed! The ride is fun and exciting!
ReplyDeleteThe availability of good quality Dharma materials is one of the great boons of the Internet. For many years I have made use of this virtual Sangha (from back in Usenet days). Where I live in India there are no other Zen Buddhists. Lots of Tibetans and I am something like an "associate" member of the Sangha here which is nice-people are very welcoming-but don't have a regular teacher as the temple here is small. It's interesting to watch the big tree of Buddhadharma manifest in so many diverse forms and it is only because of the Internet that such a manifestation can be exhibited.
ReplyDeleteAs for quoting Barry Graham-pshaw-my opinion on that fellow is well known. Am a little surprised Arun would jump on his bandwagon.
Any-hoooo it's just a comment.
I read the linked posts. I spent some time thinking about them, and have come to the conclusion that at least two of the authors are too wrapped up in the letter of the "law" than is good (imho) for contemporary Buddhism. They seem to be coming from a standpoint of exclusion, rather than one of inclusion.
ReplyDeleteI live in a relative void of Zen Dharma. The nearest Zen sangha that I've been able to find is over an hour's drive from home. I have a panic disorder that precludes me driving, so I'm pretty much stuck on my own. I have started to collect that which I would call "Dharma companions" or "Dharma friends" online. In a very real sense, I'm trying to form my own little "virtual sangha" for myself.
I find them to be an invaluable resource to help me through my practice. Do they replace a "flesh and bone" sangha? Of course not. However, in my case, they are upaya. I work with what tools I have and make the best that I am able. Some day, I hope to be able to travel to Zen Mountain Monastery and become a fully invested student, but that day is off in the future. Real day-to-day issues stand in my way for now.
So, I make due with the opportunities that I have available.
@ NellaLou - Thanks for the comment! Its nice to see that we can gain some nourishment from the interwebz. From the tone of Barry's post, it would seem that we were just wasting our time.
ReplyDelete@ Zen_Jewitch - Good to hear from you and thanks
for commenting. I agree that an online sangha is a tool for our own development. I call them Sangha-siblings sometimes and they do provide much insight that I would not otherwise get.
I live 8 hours away from the only "authentic" zen center in the region and usually practice at home or with a small group.
It seems that online sanghas are a great resource for many practitioners that are unable (for whatever reason) to attend a live one. I hope you get a chance to invest yourself fully at the ZMM. I hope to pop in myself one day and say "hi".
Cheers,
Jack
Personally, I find this to be a trivial debate. I was surprised by the very close-minded, elitist posts by Dogo and Arun but I've never read their blogs before so maybe that's a common theme.
ReplyDeleteWhile I visit my local sangha twice a week, they are not my only source of encouragement. To see my own suffering and the suffering of others is all the encouragement I'll ever need.
Are they saying a practitioner who has a wife/husband and a few young children at home, who juggles a full-time job and still finds time to sit twice a day and discuss their practice with an online group of people are not practicing with the same effort as:
"hard, inconvenient work of getting up and getting to the sangha meeting, sitting zazen, having dokusan, doing zazenkai and sesshin, and, day-to-day and week-to-week, working with your teacher to unravel the conditioning and core beliefs that run your life."
I am fortunate to be a person who has a wife/kids at home. They enrich my practice. I am also fortunate to have a local sangha. However, if I didn't you'd bet I'd be online discussing things with an online sangha.
There are very different things that happen at each. I agree they are not the same on many levels. That's like arguing over an orange and an apple. They are both fruit. They can both help your practice or hinder it. That is always up to you.
/end rant
@ hockybuddha - Great comment! I agree completely. I go through dokusan everyday with a 18 month yr old (she even has a keisaku which she uses when my attention is drifting).
ReplyDelete@HockeyBuddha - Excellent comments! Just another reason why online support for our practice is important.
ReplyDelete@Zen Jewitch - I hope I am not one of those 2 bloggers you didn't agree with. :-)